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Lasse Engelbrecht Jensen, a reporter for Danish public radio, interviews Jon Roland on the constitutional militia movement.
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0:14
my name is Jens this is the Broadcasting
0:16
Corporation
0:20
National and this is John
0:23
Rolland most notably for with the Texas
0:28
militia editing just so it's not in a
0:35
hole I first wanted you I'm going to ask
0:37
you some of the same
0:43
question what what Ro is Arizona in the
0:48
interest issue
0:51
of well the main thing is that we now
0:54
have a armed
0:57
engagement between Mexican military
1:02
forces uh and militia on our side of the
1:07
Border this is something new can you
1:11
explain that what kind of can you
1:13
explain how and
1:15
when yeah a short time ago
1:20
uh what appeared to be Mexican military
1:22
they're wearing
1:24
uniforms although their spokesman was
1:27
one of What's called the Zetta most was
1:30
L us
1:32
disease uh these were
1:34
former
1:36
uh Mexican Special Forces trained by the
1:39
United States who went to work for the
1:43
cartel as
1:45
muscle and have since broken off and
1:48
become their own
1:50
cartel uh so apparently a lot of them
1:53
still wear
1:54
uniforms we can't be sure if we see a
1:57
guy in uniform whether he's uh still in
2:01
the military or just wearing the
2:04
uniform uh but what they've been doing
2:08
is not just crossing the border with
2:12
drugs but setting up at least one
2:15
Outpost that we know of to defend their
2:18
trans shipment
2:20
quter and asserting what amounts to
2:24
sovereignty over US
2:27
Territory uh warning Americans
2:30
that if they see anyone carrying a gun
2:33
in the area of operation that they have
2:35
claimed that they will kill
2:39
them so uh the situation has risen to a
2:43
new
2:44
level that is that the most important uh
2:47
is that the most
2:49
important case down there that kind
2:53
of CES
2:56
interest well of course it's the thing
2:59
is that it went went to the point where
3:02
the The Intruders fired on
3:06
Americans the Americans fired back and
3:09
killed two of
3:11
them and the ZET CLA stole their
3:14
drugs as though they had a right not to
3:18
have the drug
3:19
stolen and uh the word we get is that
3:24
the guys seized the drugs and destroyed
3:27
them on the on the scene so uh either
3:32
that or it was a different incident
3:34
where involving a Ral
3:37
cartel uh but our guys have the policy
3:42
that if they find anyone with drugs they
3:43
destroy the
3:45
drugs what is the most important thing
3:47
that the
3:48
militia or the groups that call
3:50
themselves The Min group of Min related
3:52
groups what is the most important task
3:55
for
3:56
them well the most important task is
3:59
essentially to enforce our laws against
4:03
uh illegals entering the country across
4:05
the border at other the
4:08
checkpoints uh if someone sneaks across
4:12
the border that's an invasion under the
4:14
laws of
4:15
war the borders are not now being
4:18
adequately defended by uh us
4:23
Personnel so uh it leaves a gap and
4:28
enforcement
4:30
that's resulting in a lot of crime
4:33
including murder rape now there was a
4:36
recent incident of a Rancher and his
4:39
family being killed he being beheaded
4:42
and the ranch burned
4:44
down so evidently he was one who
4:49
resisted the demands of vettas
4:52
apparently in that case uh to uh
4:57
surrender uh control of his Ranch to
5:01
them so they can move drugs across
5:05
it and the the policy that the cartels
5:09
have been practicing what they call
5:12
Plata okomo silver or
5:15
Lead uh will'll either either accept our
5:18
bribes or we'll kill
5:20
you and they're trying to gain effective
5:25
control over
5:27
territory along the border on our side
5:30
of the border and along trans shipment
5:33
corridors leading into the United States
5:36
mainly to our Metro metropolitan
5:41
areas Arizona recently passed the law
5:44
and that's going to take effect from
5:45
this I think 29th of
5:48
July do that law anything to do with the
5:51
rising interest in what's going on
5:53
in well it provides encouragement that
5:57
there is support at the level of state
5:59
government
6:00
or resistance to Corn
6:04
Intruders
6:05
uh so we have state government on board
6:10
which we don't yet have in other
6:12
bordering
6:13
states so that itself is is encouraging
6:17
from the militia Viewpoint now of course
6:20
the law is actually very
6:22
weak all it does
6:25
is
6:27
authorize um Arizona the police to make
6:31
an arrest that they suspect someone is
6:33
an illegal and turn them over to uh
6:37
immigration and
6:39
custom uh which is pretty weak I mean
6:44
there's they could do that
6:46
anyway but uh it just uh makes it
6:51
official policy can you try to explain
6:53
to me just really shortly because I
6:55
don't think the Eng list know this I
6:57
mean at least now us except from Arizona
7:02
when this law goes it is a federal
7:06
matter
7:08
to to approach people who they believe
7:12
in the
7:13
country explain that LA and how it
7:17
is
7:20
that well the federal
7:24
statute is authorized by the clause in
7:27
our
7:28
constitution uh that gives delegates to
7:32
Congress the authority to Define crimes
7:36
involving the laws of
7:39
Nations uh the law of Nations covers
7:44
protecting your borders against
7:47
Outsiders um the question then arises is
7:51
that an exclusive delegation of power or
7:55
is shared with the state well there's
7:57
nothing in the Constitution
8:00
that forbids the States from exercising
8:02
a similar
8:04
power and in fact
8:06
originally when this country was founded
8:10
States administered
8:13
naturalization
8:15
law uh Congress had preemptive power to
8:19
prescribe the rules for
8:21
naturalization but the states actually
8:24
carried it
8:25
out and uh so it's not a stret for the
8:30
states to be engaged in defense of their
8:33
borders uh against foreign
8:36
Intruders uh so you know historically
8:41
there is adequate precedent for the
8:43
states just flat out and starting the
8:45
Border you know even Prosecuting uh
8:49
Intruders into their own
8:51
statutes uh as it is happens all they
8:54
are doing is turning them over to
8:56
federal agents for prosecution under
9:00
federal
9:01
statute uh but uh constitutionally
9:05
there's nothing that bars stays from
9:08
enacting their own penal statutes
9:14
okay you talked about for intruders
9:17
before and as I understood when you
9:19
talked about it it's not necessarily
9:21
immigrant people were coming here to
9:24
work could you could you explain to me
9:26
what you mean when
9:27
you well legally someone is only an
9:30
immigrant if they come in through a Port
9:32
of
9:35
Entry uh and then either get a temporary
9:39
Visa or a long-term work visa we call a
9:43
green
9:44
card
9:46
uh if they sneak across the border and
9:50
somewhere other than a Port of Entry
9:52
that's a
9:53
crime and that makes the person an
9:57
intruder um
9:59
even an American citizen is supposed to
10:02
enter the the country through a Port of
10:06
Entry I mean we ourselves are not
10:09
supposed to sneak across the
10:12
border uh so um that's the key
10:17
distinction and where we're talking
10:19
about here is U people from other
10:23
countries not just
10:25
Mexicans a high proportion of them are n
10:29
alties of other kind we call they call
10:32
them U
10:35
uh
10:37
oh otm other than
10:41
Mexicans um High proportion of those are
10:45
from the Middle
10:47
East so
10:49
uh uh when they Sak across the border
10:52
they become criminals and subject to
10:55
criminal
10:57
prosecution uh
11:00
a very high proportion of them are
11:03
criminals of a violent kind not just
11:06
because they snuck across the border but
11:10
because they're coming here to commit
11:12
crimes suchly violent
11:15
crimes uh
11:17
some uh Defenders of immigrants will
11:20
argue that uh on the average uh
11:24
immigrants are no more uh prone to be
11:27
criminal than than US citizens
11:31
are and even but even if that were
11:35
true um it's still every time a criminal
11:40
comes in who should have stayed on the
11:43
other side of the border that is one
11:46
criminal too
11:48
many you you
11:53
described you said that if human the
11:57
people that you talk to work with
12:06
expain you want to talk
12:09
about well the call has come from
12:13
Arizona asking other states to send
12:17
contingent to provide a show of
12:20
force the hope is that if enough of us
12:24
show up in force that it will discourage
12:27
The Intruders
12:30
uh right now the theas or their other
12:34
car have been crossing the border and
12:38
encountering very little
12:41
resistance there have been a few armed
12:43
encounters with border guards in which
12:45
our border guards have withdrawn and of
12:48
course they call in
12:49
reinforcements by the time the
12:51
reinforcements arrive the calus have
12:55
gone back over the Border but there have
12:57
been armed engagements
12:59
before uh between uh foreign Intruders
13:03
and uh us Personnel on our side of the
13:08
Border this is the first time that the
13:12
force on our side of the Border have
13:15
been civilian
13:17
Mia and they didn't
13:21
withdraw what do you what do you say to
13:23
the people who are um who say that these
13:27
people are armed and and
13:29
that's dangerous and they might even be
13:33
violent well the question of course is
13:36
violence in what
13:38
way uh we have Reliable Reports that the
13:42
intruders are armed not with just with
13:45
AKs or
13:46
M16s but with Cruiser weapons that means
13:52
uh larger guns that are mounted on a
13:55
tripod and and sered with a you know
13:58
know uh uh uh Bel of
14:04
ammunition uh that they are armed with
14:07
50 caliber weapons with uh RPGs rocket
14:13
launchers um so they're armed with heavy
14:18
stuff this isn't just light infantry
14:22
Weaponry so it's
14:24
uh the the opposition especially that is
14:29
are very well
14:31
armed and they're not carrying that kind
14:34
of armament uh just for a te
14:40
party when you talk about that amount of
14:43
Weaponry or that
14:45
size um clearly we're not talking about
14:49
only little immigrant families that are
14:52
tring to come here to Mo La and and work
14:55
in the restaurants and stuff like who
14:56
are the who are the main sources behind
14:58
what going on and what you all what to
15:00
see
15:02
most well the drugs the cartel the
15:05
cartels are mainly in the drug
15:07
trade they're trying to smuggle uh
15:11
narcotics especially heroin and cocaine
15:15
uh in the United States although they've
15:17
also been producing a lot of
15:21
amphetamine uh
15:24
however in many of the uh locations
15:29
where they have taken up fairly stable
15:32
positions because of our inner
15:35
cities uh they are actually making more
15:38
money with extortion than they are with
15:41
selling
15:43
drugs there are entire neighborhoods
15:46
where if you want to do business you
15:48
have to pay a tax to the cartel they
15:52
even call it
15:54
attack so uh but this is inside the
15:57
United States and places like Los
15:59
Angeles and San Diego and and other
16:02
cities tucon
16:04
Phoenix
16:06
uh and because everyone is afraid to
16:11
complain about them or to testify
16:13
against them the local law enforcement
16:18
is hampered in trying to do anything
16:21
about
16:22
it and in fact they are under threat
16:25
themselves the uh CH to Le have been
16:29
threatening our Law Enforcement Officers
16:31
with death not only for of themselves
16:34
but their
16:35
families and even if they are courageous
16:40
enough to resist that it that can't help
16:43
but have a an effect on
16:47
them you talk about Than People how they
16:50
play a role in this
16:53
thing yeah the uh we usually think of
16:57
drug lowers as the
16:59
guys uh in places like you know caloa
17:03
or in medine or other places medine has
17:07
been kind of shut down now but U as the
17:11
guys in the producing
17:15
count but they have to launder their
17:18
money and they mainly do it with a
17:21
cooperation of a few large International
17:25
Banks who typically make a
17:29
cut uh as much as
17:33
30% well as as near as we can figure out
17:37
the drug lowers in uh these countries
17:42
producing countries are not getting 30%
17:46
themselves they have overhead too and
17:50
after paying out uh for judges and
17:54
lawyers and uh police and everybody else
17:58
they have to pay off uh they appear to
18:01
be netting only about 5 or
18:04
[Music]
18:06
10% so with the bankers making the
18:09
biggest share of the money one has to
18:12
ask who are the real drug
18:15
lords you saying that the bankers we
18:19
when we talk about Bankers we're talking
18:20
about one of the main power players in
18:22
the
18:24
US that that they have an interest in
18:26
the border is uh indirectly because of
18:30
in the right not not necessarily as
18:34
institutions um and we think in most
18:38
cases uh the participants
18:42
are officers of those institutions who
18:45
are simply corrupt even within their own
18:48
the rules of their own
18:50
organization of course the organ it's
18:53
very easy for a corrupt Bank official to
18:57
hide what he's doing and keep the money
18:59
himself and he never shows up on the
19:01
books as as embezzlement or anything
19:05
like that that he could be get into
19:07
trouble
19:08
for uh and of course at some point the
19:11
his superiors you know might suspect
19:14
something but they don't want to you
19:17
know upset that uh situation by raising
19:20
the issue so they wind up allowing it to
19:24
occur okay uh two more questions and
19:30
if if you had the power uh of influence
19:34
to create a solution for the
19:37
Border what would that look
19:40
like well there are a number of things
19:42
we have to do one of the things is to
19:44
Simply
19:45
decriminalize these
19:48
drugs uh we tried prohibition of alcohol
19:52
and it didn't work it caused more
19:55
trouble than it
19:57
solv so uh that that wouldn't however is
20:02
contrary what to what they some
20:04
Advocates of decriminalization saying
20:06
end the drugs problem we haven't ended
20:09
the alcohol problem even though we're
20:12
now only taxing
20:14
it uh you know narcotics are a real
20:18
threat and even in countries where there
20:22
is no effective uh enforcement of drug
20:26
laws there is still crime problem
20:29
arising from
20:30
drugs because uh you know people who
20:34
care to do so can't get people hooked on
20:36
drugs and then they become those people
20:39
become their slaves for other purposes
20:42
like committing
20:44
crimes um there is no simple
20:48
answer but that's one way we can improve
20:51
the
20:53
situation another is that we're simply
20:55
going to have to invest the money
20:59
in uh Manning you know border control
21:04
operations uh all AC all along our
21:07
border not just our Southern border or
21:10
our northern border but our seos as well
21:14
and that's going to be very
21:17
expensive um so we have to ask you know
21:21
how
21:22
much uh criminal violence are we willing
21:26
to tolerate
21:29
in order to save the cost of doing that
21:31
or not doing that by not doing that what
21:34
about the immigration issue what
21:39
about
21:40
well it's generally recognized that
21:44
there is a need for foreign
21:48
labor
21:50
that is real in the sense that American
21:54
citizens probably aren't going to do
21:57
it so there needs to be a way to allow
21:59
those people to come in to work and to
22:03
go
22:04
back now we already have such a system
22:08
in
22:09
place uh it could be made more
22:12
efficient I foresee that we're going to
22:16
have to do something like uh uh flip
22:20
bracelets or other such things on all
22:25
such foreign guest workers
22:28
so that we know where they are at all
22:30
times and can make sure that they leave
22:33
when they're suppos
22:34
to
22:36
um so that's one of the things we can do
22:39
so we need to put on so actually they're
22:43
usually put on their legs yeah uh the
22:46
cost of those are going to have to be
22:48
brought
22:49
down so we would need an awful lot of
22:51
them we can't afford to spend too much
22:54
money on bracel 15 million 11 million
22:59
yeah so it's
23:01
uh but uh they've got some of these
23:04
things down now to the size of rice
23:06
grains that can be inserted Under the
23:09
Skin but they have a short range they're
23:11
only few hundred
23:13
feet so getting them to be both long
23:16
range and small and cheap then becomes
23:19
challenge but it's probably it's it's a
23:22
problem that could probably be solved I
23:25
could imagine if if that happen there
23:27
possible mark them somehow that a lot of
23:30
uh groups on the net would say that this
23:33
is a break this a violation of civil
23:37
rights human rights well but the problem
23:42
is that foreign Nationals don't have the
23:44
same civil rights we
23:47
do uh everyone has a certain basic civil
23:52
rights but foreign Nationals lack one
23:56
important right because the right stay
23:59
here and if they are going to stay here
24:03
for any period of time they have to
24:06
agree to submit to
24:09
supervision and
24:12
once that rule is imposed then we get uh
24:20
the legitimate power of government to do
24:23
things like bracet putting bracelets on
24:27
forign
24:28
visitors okay last question
24:32
was how how do you see the interest in
24:35
this qu uh isue how do you see when you
24:38
say that it's it's on the right can you
24:39
just describe to me what what signs are
24:42
they what is it that Mak you say
24:45
that well here in
24:47
Texas we are gotten to the point where
24:50
we have competing musters on any given
24:54
weekend um competing in the sense that
24:57
there there more than one in different
25:00
locations so that no one can attend all
25:03
of
25:04
them um and more and more guys are
25:07
showing up to those
25:10
mustard um we're getting a lot of guys
25:14
who are returning from Iraq and
25:18
Afghanistan who are freshly
25:21
trained very well
25:24
trained uh who want to to
25:29
been let's say enlightened by their
25:32
foreign
25:34
experience and now want to use their
25:36
skills to defend their country
25:39
here so as we get more and more of those
25:43
course most of them are when they return
25:46
are busy trying to get settled into
25:49
their new lives but most of them have
25:52
enough spare time that they wanted
25:55
devoted to defending their country so
25:59
uh uh we've been seeing increases in
26:04
participation like oh I don't know 20 30
26:08
40% a
26:10
month so you're talking about support
26:13
spent every month so far for since this
26:17
year yeah okay
26:20
great a lot of mosquitoes I'm
26:26
get I got a creek down there
26:30
yeah
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