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Jon Roland at the Austin Constitution Meetup June 18, 2013, discusses the constitutional issues with recently re-revealed activity of the NSA and other government agencies.
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0:02
john rollins at the austin constitution
0:04
meetup
0:06
june 18 2013.
0:09
we're resuming the discussion with
0:13
a discussion on
0:15
nsa surveillance
0:17
and the issues that it raises
0:21
first of all
0:23
on the question of the
0:25
leaking of
0:26
information about it
0:31
it is not clear to me at this time
0:34
whether the information that has been
0:36
leaked
0:37
is really
0:40
new information
0:42
uh you know whether it's really a secret
0:46
it has not been a secret for me
0:49
now i'd have to admit i haven't heard
0:51
the name prism
0:54
as a project name before
0:56
but other than that everything the nsa
0:58
has been doing
1:00
he has been well known well documented
1:03
much discussed
1:05
he has been going it is or his
1:07
predecessor's work
1:09
has been going on since world war ii
1:12
without interruption
1:16
essentially
1:18
they've been scarfing up
1:20
all the communications of every kind
1:22
whatsoever everywhere on earth that they
1:25
can
1:27
if they can do it they record it
1:31
and
1:34
that's the fact that
1:36
technology now makes it possible to
1:39
literally record every telephone
1:41
conversation
1:43
every email every browser
1:46
web browser visit
1:48
everything at all that happens
1:50
electronically
1:52
for all we know they're even tapping
1:54
into
1:57
conversations between children
2:02
in
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talking over
2:06
between cans
2:07
connected by
2:08
strains
2:11
so
2:17
the question is
2:18
is nsa surveillance unconstitutional
2:23
now a lot of people are upset about it
2:26
in fact i'm one of them
2:28
but i have but it's not because it's
2:30
something new to me
2:32
it's been
2:34
an open secret their earlier names for
2:37
the activities include echelon
2:40
project echelon that is
2:42
it's been well known that
2:45
where the government has a rule that
2:48
they're not supposed to surveil uh u.s
2:51
citizens
2:52
they've been having our allies do it
2:55
and we could then we then we get their
2:57
information from them
2:59
and we do the same thing for them and
3:02
give them the information
3:04
so
3:05
in a world of multiple nations many of
3:08
whom are allied to us
3:10
we can always find a way
3:13
to surveil anyone anywhere
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by some combination of
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national efforts or even private efforts
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after all you can have
3:24
the credit reporting agencies
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are
3:28
doing the same kind of work
3:30
and reporting their
3:32
findings to the government
3:34
and well the government always said well
3:37
we're not doing that
3:40
even if the law says they can't do that
3:42
it doesn't prevent a private
3:43
organization from doing it or from the
3:46
government from the government from
3:48
getting the results
3:50
so they can contract all this stuff out
3:53
or even just have it given to them if
3:55
they don't want to pay for it
3:57
so um
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the question is
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what are the constitutional issues
4:05
involved in this
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and from the discussions that
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we hear
4:10
it doesn't seem that people are clear on
4:12
some of these concepts
4:15
what it comes down to is is there an
4:18
expectation of privacy for phone calls
4:20
emails etc
4:22
maybe not
4:25
depends on the technology of how other
4:27
conductors
4:30
there is a privacy
4:32
in sealed mail
4:33
but not in postcards
4:36
if you mail a postcard anybody can read
4:38
it
4:39
that the head handles it now you can say
4:42
well only postmen are supposed to handle
4:44
it and you're not supposed to let
4:46
anybody else handle it but the fact is
4:49
that
4:50
nail is left lying around all the time
4:53
in post boxes on the street and so forth
4:57
so
4:58
realistically
5:00
uh you could say there's privacy in
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not opening people's mail but not in
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uh if it's if it's already open
5:10
wiretapping needed warrants when
5:13
connections were two-way and expected to
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be private
5:16
it used to be that you conducted a phone
5:19
call and you did have an expectation of
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privacy
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just because of the nature of the
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technology
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maybe
5:27
the
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cell phone operator could listen in
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but chances are it wasn't practical for
5:35
anyone else to do so
5:37
without
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being intrusive in
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a clear-cut way
5:42
but when packets are broadcast and
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reassembled who's the owner
5:48
when it goes out over the airwaves or
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over the internet trunk lines
5:53
who is actually an owner once it's
5:55
released into the wild as it were
6:01
and i would say that
6:03
if we expect
6:04
any kind of privacy
6:07
for our electronic communications we're
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going to have to encrypt them
6:12
and only if we encrypt them can we
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really expect fourth amendment
6:16
protections
6:18
uh
6:22
we need a new standard
6:24
it's not enough to protect against
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intrusion
6:28
into privacy zones
6:30
to prevent excessive surveillance we
6:33
need a new principle of restraint
6:36
an expectation of non-surveillance
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which would extend into public spaces
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and covers things like visual
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recognition
6:46
it is not clear that this standard can
6:48
be made judicial
6:50
it may be amenable only to the
6:51
legislation
6:53
and
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lots of luck with
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congress trying to keep up with
6:57
technological developments in the field
7:00
if not enacted
7:02
public surveillance may overwhelm
7:04
protection in private zones
7:08
the problem basically comes comes down
7:10
to this
7:12
we have to go out sometime
7:15
everything we do in the open is
7:17
scrutinized we may never be able to make
7:20
it to a private space
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there may be nowhere to go or that we
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can get you before
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they interfere with our
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our
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personal activities
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or if there are any more zones of
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privacy to be able to take any refuge
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there
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if you're
7:40
only private in a
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place where you can't make a living
7:46
then
7:47
sooner or later
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you have to go out and they can get you
7:53
so
7:56
your home your
7:58
your personal your effects your
8:01
uh premises
8:03
are a wonderful concept
8:05
but the home the home is not the castle
8:08
it once was
8:10
due to technological developments
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now
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if you uh
8:16
type on the wrong kind of keyboard
8:19
the
8:20
emissions from rf emissions from your
8:22
keyboard
8:23
may be readable
8:25
by someone next door
8:27
now if you conduct if you engage in a
8:30
conversation
8:32
a an infrared
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beam
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can read the vibration of your windows
8:40
in order to
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determine what you're saying
8:45
if you have smells coming out of your
8:48
house
8:49
that can be detectable by a machine or
8:51
even by dog
8:53
it may be allowed
8:56
to be
8:58
you know the basis for
9:00
a
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probable cause affidavit
9:07
so
9:10
or even just excessive use of
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electricity
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which might be suspected as being used
9:17
to
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grow
9:20
the wrong kind of plants
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so
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there's all sorts of activities that
9:27
extend beyond the zone of privacy that
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you think you may have
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and that
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will are going to need to be addressed
9:37
if we are to achieve a measure of
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privacy
9:40
that most of us
9:42
would be comfortable with
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