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Q&A with Jon Roland at Austin Constitution Meetup on Jan. 19, 2011. Topics discussed included constitutional issues involved in recent events.
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0:00
floor is actually open for questions comments whatever of the
0:05
day and then if there's a demand for it i also have a presentation ready
0:11
kevin and your estimation what went wrong at the whiskey
0:19
well those were two different events with different motivations
0:24
the shays rebellion was over essentially
0:31
a crisis to which we can sort of relate in our own time foreclosures on mortgages
0:40
many of the property owners western massachusetts were
0:48
indebted uh their debts secured by mortgages on their land and because of
0:55
the collat essentially the collapse of the currency such as there was crocodiles
1:04
were worthless they didn't have an effective mechanism
1:09
for earning money to pay their taxes it's not that they were deadbeats or
1:14
that they weren't prospering reasonably well under the circumstances it's that they had to do everything by
1:22
barter because there was no specie in circulation at least not enough of it
1:28
so um that created a real problem the war the war had pretty well sucked
1:35
up all the species that went to the supplying you know suppliers of the war effort and others
1:42
foreign lenders and such so uh that also became an issue in the whiskey
1:49
rebellion because uh congress imposed the tax on whiskey
1:55
thinking that uh it would be a good way to get revenue for a luxury good
2:01
which was fine except that the tax had to be paid in gold and silver and
2:06
they didn't have any out in western pennsylvania they again were on a barter system
2:14
people paid for things with uh dry goods and other things articles of
2:21
commerce so since there wasn't any enough money in circulation enough specie
2:27
they didn't have any way to pay their debts for their taxes so that led to you know rising up
2:35
and essentially people marching and rallying and saying we will not pay
2:41
these taxes if it had been a different or later time
2:48
when there was enough gold and silver in circulation the situation would probably not have
2:54
developed but the government was essentially putting people in an impossible position
3:00
they didn't really think it through and which is a situation with which we're also somewhat
3:06
familiar so uh
3:12
the shay's rebellion in particular now that occurred before the constitution
3:18
and it led to the provision in the constitution that militia could
3:24
be called up to suppress insurrections the militia was called up to suppress
3:29
shea's rebellion now that mostly just fizzled out
3:35
uh there was only one prosecution most of the rest of it was just sort of settled and swept under the
3:42
rug but it did raise a lot of concerns on the part of the creditor class in
3:51
the 13 states of that time and which also led to the
3:56
to the provision about not impairing the obligation of contracts
4:03
because what shea was demanding was that the deaths be cancelled
4:10
so at that time they didn't have a convenient mechanism like we do now
4:16
of dealing with the current mortgage crisis because the lenders today or the last
4:24
couple of decades have been losing their notes they didn't think they needed them they
4:31
thought they could just file an affidavit of being the owner and holder in due course
4:37
and the court would go along with that but in texas in particular one what i
4:44
the way i first learned law was as a real estate investor
4:49
back in the 70s and 80s i started with real estate law
4:56
and one of the things i soon learned is that a is what's called the best evidence
5:04
rule if you go into court with a copy of something
5:10
the other side can say okay show me the original if you can't show the original you
5:16
haven't met the best evidence test for a note
5:21
the original signed copy of the note is the obligation
5:26
two set original signed notes they have this exactly the same terms are two different
5:33
obligations they're not just copies of one another
5:38
so don't let ever anyone trick you into signing a note twice
5:44
because you're creating two obligations and not just one i was actually able to cancel a debt
5:51
that way and because i demanded the original note from the
6:00
creditor that my opponent in the lawsuit and after hamming and howling for a
6:06
while they came up with something it was a forgery that forced my signature to it
6:13
they had lost the original well once i pointed that out to the judge
6:18
that shot them down so that was the end of their action
6:24
so what is happening now on the mortgage front is that people are discovering which i've been
6:30
telling them now since about 1998 are thereabouts that
6:37
these mortgages are not in order that in fact lenders were losing the
6:43
notes or misplacing them or sending them off to some storage facility where they couldn't be
6:49
found easily and nobody knew for sure who owned them
6:54
it might be owned jointly by a lot of different people but who was the actual owner
6:59
that was called the owner and holder of the note without that without a definite chain of
7:06
title for both the note and the mortgage in texas mortgages are needs of trust
7:13
you do not have authority to foreclose
7:19
and i made it you know i was in a rough spot there for a few years where i had to defend against foreclosure
7:26
efforts on my own properties and i just systematically filed for a
7:31
temporary restraining order and demanded proof of that they had the power to foreclose
7:37
and very often they couldn't or they couldn't produce the proof so the implication however for our own
7:46
time is that if almost all the major lenders have done this if they cannot produce the original
7:53
notes and a clear chain of title on the mortgages then it's going to have the
7:58
practical effect of wiping out most mortgage loans the commercial real
8:04
estate industry has the same problem but only thing left will be credit card
8:10
debt well if all of those debts are wiped out
8:16
and there's a bunch of eager lawyers now going around advertising you know we will
8:22
protect your home from foreclosure well they're discovering that or rediscovering it
8:30
and if as lo if they proceed and their efforts now to try to
8:37
undo the best evidence rule there's a federal bill to do that and it's
8:43
probably going to fail then we could see the financial industry
8:50
collapse far more severely than it threatened to do in 2008
8:58
because if they're at that time the crisis was they were uncertain of the
9:03
value of the paper backing up their securitized
9:09
obligations now there would be no uncertainty they would have zero value
9:17
it would be a boon for lawyers we're talk lawyers are looking out wholesale filing
9:24
of quiet title actions to just system even for those
9:30
homeowners who are not in default just as you know just on the opportunity
9:35
the possibility that they may be able to cancel their debt uh there are lots of firms now
9:42
advertising for that question yeah you can't find the deed
9:49
who owns the property well the deed of record is what counts if it's
9:55
recorded if you're so you're okay if it's not recorded and you can't find it
10:01
then you may be stuck what is the bank the banknote holds the t to trust right
10:08
the deed of trust yeah now that's different from the deal that's the mortgage if they can't find
10:14
that if they can't find the original well
10:19
if it's a record they have a little slim hope you know
10:26
just the note that's critical and generally if the note is transferred
10:31
it also transfers the the deed of trust the way the deeds of trusts are written
10:38
but if it's not either recorded or they can't find the original then that
10:43
could be you could under a quiet title action you'd be getting cancelled
10:50
well the uh or at least the power to foreclose on the property
10:56
now they might sue you for the money if they can find the note but if they wouldn't have security on on
11:03
the property they would have to get a judgment first and then it would be a general lien on all your assets but of course
11:11
in texas where homestead state they can't execute on an
11:18
a judgment on your homestead unless it was an original mortgage
11:25
so if it's separated from the mortgage the how the home becomes uh is no longer subject to execution
11:36
is that separation from the mortgage when one lender then sells your mortgage to somebody else yeah they have to maintain a
11:44
chain of title and it has to be a series of original signatures
11:50
if there is or no if there are breaks in that chain of original signatures
11:56
then the last person who has an original signature is the one who
12:01
is technically the one who has the power to foreclose but he may no longer have an interest in
12:07
doing so he may be out of the picture now so if our mortgage was was sold to
12:13
another company and we didn't sign off on that sale like we personally did not sign off on
12:18
that sale is that a break in the chain or or it could be it depends on what the
12:24
deed of trust says the ones we used which were state bar forms and i used
12:33
provided that the the borrower had to be notified of any
12:39
transfers and if you didn't notify him and you couldn't
12:45
they could be challenged to prove that you notified me if you don't have proof you notified him
12:51
then you know you you could lose the obligation or an hour again the need of trust and
12:58
the note can be separated but if you can't foreclose on the real estate then the note may be useless if
13:04
you don't have another property
13:10
so uh john yeah how does the term land versus real estate play into
13:17
whether you actually own the proper or not not really these are just
13:24
terms real estate is the term real estate is used to distinguish between
13:30
real property and personal property generally all property is classified you
13:36
know into one or the other but the some of the distinctions can get
13:41
lost you know you can have a personal property interest in real property
13:49
you know if you've got a uh things parked on the
13:55
real property you know do you use a personal property or is it part of the real property
14:02
well the general rule is that if it's attached permanently attached like a water heater is attracted to the
14:08
plumbing system then it's part of the real property but if it's just one of these portable
14:16
on-demand water heaters you just plug in and run the water through
14:21
so it's not permanently attached that's personal property
14:30
and personal property is also much of it is also exempt
14:36
if it's essentials for your livelihood for your if it's
14:44
tools of your trade uh your car probably won't be uh subject
14:49
to it your personal clothing uh books personal articles things like that
14:55
are in general not subject execution texas is a better state that way than
15:02
most creditors in other states used to
15:07
refuse to for example
15:12
factor accounts receivables for contractors
15:20
if they were for texas clients because the state of texas made it so
15:26
difficult to collect on them so you'll see a variation from state to
15:32
state on how easy it is to collect
15:39
some kind of loan and in fact what we've seen in the last
15:46
oh 20 or 30 years is that the creditors have exercised more and more influence
15:51
on the courts on judicial rules and cust custom practice and policy to try to shift the
15:59
balance in their favor it used to be that court simply assumed
16:05
that the creditor was the good guy and i encountered a situation back in
16:11
about 1980 when the creditor was a bad guy he was using a debt
16:16
not to collect the money but to destroy me financially he was tied to my political opponents in
16:22
laredo and that was an alien concept to the judge
16:28
until during the course of the trial it began to gradually emerge on him that they
16:34
were not out to collect the money they were out to destroy and
16:41
that was something for which that judge and the courts generally were not prepared it's become much more common since then
16:49
the use of lawsuits to destroy people who criticize you
16:54
so-called slap suits for example so technically this is what is called
17:01
abusive or if if you you win
17:07
a malicious prosecution that's where lawsuits are used not for to seek
17:14
justice but to punish or harass or cause damages to somebody
17:22
use the lawsuit itself used as a tool for inflicting injury
17:30
well you brought up property rights um as i understand it in texas in general
17:35
if your deed doesn't mention mineral rights or water rights or something like that you
17:40
don't have them and as i understand there's a lot of places in the country where
17:46
if you don't have the water rights on your property the government claims that they have the right to the water that comes off your
17:53
roof and you can't impede it or store it or anything like that what are the chances of that happening
17:59
in texas is there anything that might prevent that in order to stay long it doesn't work that way in texas a
18:05
general warranty deed is a deed to everything if you want to accept mineral rights you
18:11
have to accept them specifically so generally it's a conveyance of
18:19
everything the the real estate and everything pertaining there too
18:24
well that wasn't the way i heard it the way i heard it was if it doesn't mention it then you don't have it no that's not
18:29
true certainly not in texas well i heard about it specifically in texas yeah well
18:37
i don't think they're wrong yeah i think they're wrong general general deed uh general warranty
18:46
transfers everything unless you specify something some exceptions
18:52
but of course there could be a conveyance somewhere of record of the
18:58
mineral rights so it's possible that it might neglect to mention that
19:05
and it's just simply conveying what their interest is if any in the property
19:11
but then you'd have to go back to the to the records to see if there are any uh tran
19:17
conveyances of the mineral rights or anything else that were from a previous owner
19:24
so that's why you need to always do a title check on any real estate conveyance you need
19:31
to check all of the transfers involving that property going back you know for
19:37
at least 30 40 50 years or more and it's a very useful skill to be able
19:43
to do your own title checks getting a insurance title policy from a
19:49
title company is like better is pretty good but you
19:55
would need to really do your own research yeah as i understand the title policy that you buy protects
20:01
the lender not you no no it protects you it protects the buyer thank you
20:07
it protects the buyer how does it protect the buyer it's the title company is saying that uh
20:13
they've checked the title and the seller these has the power to convey
20:19
all this and if it turns out later that he didn't then it will pay you for it
20:27
you you might not get the property back but you really get the money for it
20:32
pay the lender not you right no no they pay you i mean you have to pay the lender and
20:38
then you have to pay the lender right right
20:46
of course normally in a situation like that they'd you all be involved in the same lawsuit
20:53
chances are the lender would lend the lender would be paying for it
20:59
okay any other questions comments i got another question that gives us some something similar to that
21:06
i was talking to a gentleman at freescale here in town and uh he was telling me
21:13
i i should say i've heard a conversation um he's telling me that he owned a house
21:18
out in hill country that was over the recharge on edward's aquifer and
21:25
that he had all of his water was was acquired through a reach out or
21:31
through a water collection system on his roof and the city or the
21:37
utility company came out and wanted to put a meter on that they said basically the reason why
21:43
they're trying to charge him for it was because he was in effect stealing the water that would have gone back into the recharge
21:50
instead of you know having water delivered to his house is
21:56
that possible yes uh that's the case where it's a regulatory
22:05
taking as it were of the water the state of texas and other political
22:13
uh subdivisions do that kind of thing and it certainly is a source of great
22:19
controversy because they don't pay you for it they simply declare that you are in a
22:25
recharge zone and with their restrictions on how you might use the water
22:33
now whether they have the authority in a particular case to meter the water off your roof
22:41
is dubious if you were to litigate that the odds are that they would lose but
22:47
you know you never know about these how these things will go the courts generally tend to favor
22:55
the established authorities you know it's very hard to sue the government or any
23:00
government entity um because this the courts are stacked
23:06
against you you can get it before a jury you might prevail
23:11
but in most cases that you won't get it before a jury it'll be decided as an administrative
23:18
matter and then in effect reverses the presumption
23:23
so that now it's your burden is on you to prove that they don't have the authority to do that
23:29
same way income taxes work yeah
23:36
okay other questions speaking of income taxes do you have any
23:43
uh suggestions for maximizing the returns this this tax
23:48
season well i'd say first of all hang on to your job if you've got one
23:56
because it's by no means certain that you'll have one by the end of the year
24:02
um remember what i said earlier if the financial system collapses
24:08
if if most mortgage notes are considered are cancelled
24:14
then we're going to see a collapse of the world global economy and it is a
24:20
global problem unlike anything that we have ever seen in history
24:26
gives me worse than the thymar republic so um yeah as long as we
24:34
are physically producing goods and services that we can trade with our friends and
24:41
neighbors then we probably won't starve here
24:47
but for too much of the of the population they get their food from 1500 miles away
24:55
and they could have a real problem texas is almost unique in the world it's about
25:01
the largest region of its size that is self-sufficient in most resources
25:08
we produce most of our own food locally we might like to buy a few things from
25:14
us out of state but if push comes to shove we can live on off of texas
25:20
unfortunately then we might have uh jillions of californians and oklahomans
25:26
and arkansans and everybody else trying to cross our
25:31
border so you know things could get very
25:36
interesting
25:51
well the best investment right now is to make friends with somebody who owns a
25:57
piece of good farmland and make a deal that if he'll feed you you'll secure his
26:04
place and his
26:09
and family course a lot of us are already thinking about that
26:17
okay further questions you're on a roll here you remember what
26:23
you were saying friday night at bagpipes at the uh travis county republican liberty caucus our former travis county republican
26:30
libertarian office um about multiplication and how
26:36
the sheriff tries to arrest federal agents and so on um any local court action will be
26:43
removed to federal court and you'll lose there um and you get i believe you gave him
26:49
some kind of solution to get around that or to work towards that but i forgot what it was
26:54
well it's laid out in this thing i just handed out here
26:59
it does not work to try to make it a crime state crime for a federal agent to do
27:06
his work even if it's unconstitutional
27:14
you can sue the federal agent yourself personally and try to get what he was doing
27:20
declared unconstitutional but you can't just arrest him and prosecute him
27:28
that's already been thought of it sounded like a neat solution everybody just climbing onto it saying
27:34
just just arrest them throw them in jail that won't work they've already thought
27:40
of that they've got that covered
27:46
in fact it hasn't really worked since 1812. that's when the statute was first passed
27:53
uh allowing for removal jurisdiction as it's called
27:58
all you have to do is a one-page filing he just simply says style of the case
28:05
and it says removal and then you say i hereby remove this case
28:14
from such and such a court to federal court
28:19
sign it file it with a federal court of the state court and that's done that does it it is removed
28:27
the state court may not proceed the federal court may not proceed either but
28:33
at least it has its in its on its docket
28:38
now what the federal court does with it after that is the question
28:43
they may decide that it's a federal issue and decide it on its merits
28:49
they may decide that it's not a federal issue and remand it back to state court
28:54
they might decide that it's frivolous and just dismiss it out of hand uh maybe even oppose sanctions on on the
29:01
party one or more of the parties and that's essentially what they're
29:08
doing when a state tries to prosecute a federal agent now that's not to say you can't
29:13
prosecute a federal agent under certain circumstances if the guy if the agent is at home
29:22
has an argument with his wife and shoots her that's murder under state law and the
29:28
state can prosecute but if he's on duty
29:34
and he choose her the chances are he'll get away with it
29:40
because he was on duty now the standard used to be that he had to be acting within his
29:47
jurisdiction which was a matter of from one moment to the next
29:52
you could be acting within your jurisdiction doing wiggling this finger and outside of it
29:58
wiggling that finger two separate actions separated in space
30:04
and time one lawful the other one not well the courts have abandoned that kind
30:11
of subtle distinctions and they just saying you know if he's if he's on duty he's immune dismissed
30:21
that's what happened with the for example the londoriuchi case ruby ridge coryucci shot
30:28
vicki weaver and her son the local d.a tried to prosecute
30:37
it was removed to federal court and dismissed in fact in most such cases
30:44
it's dismissed within hours sometimes even minutes but god never
30:51
sees the inside of a jail before he even gets to the magistrate to
30:57
be for to be arraigned it's it's over
31:03
so uh people who fantasize about being able to arrest federal agents they just
31:09
need to forget that there is a solution i lay it out i've in
31:15
exquisite detail in my proposal it's about the only thing
31:20
that can work and of course the problem i'm encountering is that
31:26
people don't understand it and it's not an aggregate right it is not enacted yet right
31:33
no i'm still trying to get a sponsor in the state legislature in fact one of the things i'm asking you
31:40
guys to do tonight is to all write your member of the state legislature
31:45
members to members and ask them to sponsor it
31:51
but i'd like you to do that before you even leave here tonight i brought paper and envelopes
31:58
i didn't bring enough pens but presumably you have your own pens or can borrow some it doesn't have to be printed out on an
32:04
ice laser printer just hand write a letter dear legislator
32:10
please sponsor this legislation it's all you need to say sign it
32:17
you know identify yourself and uh i'll put the stamps on you can mail them
32:23
for you well you know my legislator is mark stroma he's lost well he may be
32:29
but it doesn't hurt to put pressure on him anyway i mean he just because they're a lost
32:36
college doesn't mean that they might not be absent the day that it
32:41
comes up for a committee voting and let it go through okay there are
32:48
lots of ways you can exercise influence yeah i haven't read through all of this but is this
32:53
is this in reference to the obamacare stuff well it could be among other things it's about
32:58
is about everything okay all federal user patients okay now let me ask you what's what
33:06
they're proposing i guess this legislative session is um
33:11
making it a crime for anybody to try to impose obama obamacare um like a five thousand
33:18
dollar penalty or two years in jail or something like that that's what i've been
33:23
to collect on the on the what's called the individual mandate yes and that's an example of things that
33:28
won't work why is that several reasons first of all they can do it from out of state they
33:36
don't even have to be inside texas to do it second of all
33:41
there these act specifically says that irs agents may not levy or lean to
33:48
collect it and he said well wait a minute if they can't levy or lean then how can they
33:54
collect it well the answer is they have to already have some money of yours
33:59
and not give it back to you they can't go after your bank account
34:05
they can't put a lien on your house but if your employer has withheld
34:11
part of your wages uh the typical scenario might be that well the let's say the individual
34:17
mandate is seven hundred dollars okay so the uh based upon the way you
34:24
fill out your w-2 form you're with an employer with holes
34:30
uh two thousand dollars and you figure out that without the
34:37
individual mandate that you owe about eighteen hundred dollars
34:42
so you apply for a two hundred dollar refund and the irs comes back says no uh
34:50
we're not going to send you the 200 refund in fact you still owe us 500 and we
34:57
have we consider you to be delinquent we have interest penalties and you now
35:04
owe us ten thousand dollars that's assuming that that you're pre-paying the irs
35:11
giving them an interest-free loan i mean everybody should be clearing more exemptions so that they take less money out and
35:17
then you pay them when they're due yeah it's a good incentive to put you know on your w-2 on your w-4 i'm
35:24
sorry that there to be no exemptions but that doesn't take care of social
35:31
security fica yeah employer is still going to take off of that i want to bring up that point
35:37
my employer is taking out money now for obamacare so it is in fact being enacted in texas at
35:44
this moment so whatever carrier the legislators say we're not going to let it happen here it's already going on
35:50
yeah we see the agent in that case is not an irs agent
35:56
it's your employer and it's coming out to an additional twelve hundred dollars a year now
36:01
yeah okay so that leaves a question uh the statute as is proposed does not
36:09
cover employers withholding but they really are the agents involved
36:16
so you're not going to be able to get the state to throw the employers in jail
36:22
and even if you could their only their defense would be you know we're
36:29
simply acting as an agent of the federal federal government remove dismiss
36:38
so it's uh and besides of course you'll never work anywhere again because the word will get out once you sue your employer for that
36:46
employers have no incentive to stand up for your rights they're just in business to make money
36:53
not in not of the business of defending their employees rights so if the government tells them even if
37:00
some irs agent says uh withhold all of his wages we have a claim against him you know
37:07
unpaid child support or something there's no lien there's no levy there's nothing
37:13
just a phone call what are the odds are that that employer is going to
37:19
not do what the guy on the other end of the phone tells him to
37:24
he's going to probably reason well my employee could sue me but where are the odds that he's
37:30
going to be able to afford to do so or that he would prevail if he did
37:36
so everything is stacked on one side of the of the uh
37:42
of the situation and of course that's what the government
37:48
is counting on they're counting on you know in the way it works in tax law
37:54
or tax statutes is that in order to get a
38:01
refund essentially you have to pay all the money the irs claims and then sue to get it back
38:09
so if they've added on ten thousand dollars in interest and penalties on a 1800 obligation
38:18
you're gonna have to spend maybe ten twenty thousand dollars for a lawyer
38:23
to get back the ten thousand on what started out as uh you know
38:30
less than a couple thousand very few people are going to make the
38:35
principal decision to do that they're going to make an economic decision and the entire tax
38:42
structure is based upon people making economic decisions that it's better to
38:48
pay than to fight so even people who knows for sure
38:53
they're going to win aren't going to fight because of the
38:59
difficulties expense and so forth this is the technique i call it in
39:05
some of my blog articles
39:11
making remedies inaccessible the old saying is there are no rights
39:17
without a remedy and some people say well we've lost our rights well no we haven't
39:23
can't lose our rights you can't even lose our rent we can't even lose our remedies
39:29
but our remedies can be made so difficult so expensive that they're effectively
39:36
put out of reach of most people so that has the practical effect of
39:43
depriving the right because it deprives the remedy
39:48
so that's the way it's been working and most lay people don't understand this
39:53
distinction and because they don't understand it they're easy prey to it which is one of the
40:02
reasons i'm doing what i'm doing to try to enlighten
40:08
people okay further questions
40:15
have i stunned you into silence here yes
40:22
um what's uh has anyone here had any experience with the travis county sheriff um
40:31
like do we know how he busy in favor or support the local militia or
40:38
notification federal agents i would say the local
40:43
sheriff the travis county sheriff is a kind of a lost cause there are no richard max around here
40:51
um the the closest you're going to find anybody like that is in some of our
40:56
rural counties see the good people of texas in their
41:02
ignorance passed a constitutional amendment a few years
41:07
back introducing a requirement that all
41:13
sheriffs be certified peace officers so who certifies peace officers
41:22
the state which means essentially that the state may decertify
41:28
any sheriff anytime they want and he's out of a job
41:38
that was another case where there was something on the ballot that looked good so people voted for it
41:44
they didn't know what they were voting for and they suffer the consequences okay well then follow-up question of
41:50
that is uh based based on sheriff what are the best
41:56
uh most friendly counties in the surrounding area uh you just about you have to go at
42:02
least oh 100 miles to find a halfway decent one
42:09
so i i can't think of any offhand but at this the since that constitutional
42:17
amendment was adopted uh the sheriffs have become so cow that it's difficult to get their help on
42:24
anything now there was a time when that was not like that
42:30
back in 1995 the militia units of south central texas
42:37
about roughly 20 counties organized a public election for committee of safety
42:44
there was a nominating process public elections were announced and held
42:50
in each county for polling places ballots printed
42:55
the whole works but it was all private effort but it was it was a public election
43:01
because of the way it was done it complied with the law anybody can hold a public election if
43:07
you follow the law and that's what we did so we elected
43:13
a committee of safety which became the governing body for militias in that region of texas
43:22
all the turnout was not very good but it was better than for some public utility
43:27
districts you know which typically only get a one percent turnout i think we got something
43:33
like two two and a half percent and what was interesting is that the people who voted were
43:40
much larger number than those who ever showed up to militia musters knew seemed to know
43:46
who they were voting for so that told us that there was a large
43:54
pool of support out there that we never saw except on that occasion
44:03
now unfortunately we made one important mistake with that the guy who drafted the
44:11
bylaws for the committee of safety neglected to provide for replacements
44:17
and we started having guys resign to run for other public office
44:23
for example one of them ran for county commissioner of in bastrop county
44:32
and one and one so when guys started saying well hey we got
44:38
elected to this we can get elected to something else they started resigning to run for other public office
44:44
we didn't have any way to replace them until we lost the quorum
44:49
so if we do this kind of thing again we need to make sure that it's a complete set of bylaws that provides for all the
44:54
contingencies the guy who drafted it tried to keep it short and simple
45:00
he started out with a pretty good set and pared it down well he did the same thing with my
45:06
suggested rules and regulations for a militia which started out pretty long
45:12
and he said well this is too much guys aren't going to read this they're not going to accept it well maybe but yeah they had a way of
45:19
discovering there was a reason for all those rules and regulations yeah you know so
45:26
um sometimes it's a good idea to go with the old guy
45:32
he might know something this situation you're describing leaving that concept in limbo
45:41
are there i guess i would call it administrative
45:47
type activities if you don't have a quorum then we have to go through another
45:53
public election process to repopulate your yeah organization and we couldn't we
45:59
couldn't muster the effort because it was a huge effort
46:05
it took a lot of guys working very hard uh very long hours you know day after day to pull it
46:11
off you know they they soon learn why it is that there are not a lot of private elections
46:19
the very first elections were conducted that way if you ask how did the very first
46:27
candidates to the congress or you know the white house or any other office
46:32
got elected it was through a bunch of citizens getting together and holding elections on their own dime there was no taxpayer
46:40
funds for polling elections they just did it of course those days
46:47
too people didn't have printed ballots they just wrote down names on a piece of paper
46:53
so uh a lot of things have changed but it was a great learning
46:59
experience the closest thing to it we've seen in recent times was the election of delegates to the uh
47:06
the uh continental congress 2009
47:12
but we try to duplicate this kind of process in every state the the reality is that only in only a
47:19
couple of states were people able to pull it off we did a pretty good job here in texas
47:26
uh the tournament wasn't very good but at least we followed the procedures fairly well
47:33
what we didn't do is put out announcements in every county of the state
47:39
which is one of the requirements for statewide election there's generally three places in every
47:45
county you have to post notices the newspaper of record and two bulletin
47:50
boards one of them probably on the courthouse door if you follow those forms then you have
47:57
legally given notice to the public that there will be an election of course it has to be done a certain number of
48:03
days before the election is held and you know you have to announce polling places and
48:09
you know all that sort of thing has to be followed but uh there's nothing to prevent it from being
48:15
done again and i keep encouraging somebody to do it
48:21
because once we had done that and here's where the we get back to the
48:28
the topic of the sheriff all of a sudden every public official
48:34
felt they had to come and speak to the committee of safety or to militia units when they were
48:40
running for election we weren't just a bunch of kooks and
48:45
radicals anymore now we were involved citizens with our own organization we began to be
48:53
seen like a rotary club or elks club or kiwanis or whatever any other public service
48:59
club but we were respected they listened to us and we began to have
49:06
some influence some of the sheriffs even shows willingness to
49:11
engage us if they needed our help of course they never did but if they did they indicated that willingness
49:20
that's important but it was that election that did it
49:25
that is what gave us credibility and authority
49:34
what was the turnout exactly around how many people i'm not sure of the exact number but i
49:40
know somebody estimated it was about two and a half percent
49:47
for the committee committee of safety about two and a half
49:53
percent the continental congress is less than one one-tenth of one percent
49:58
in texas or nationwide in texas do you know how many people uh nationally voted on that i remember
50:06
we were yeah very very few other states were even less a lot of the states were just a bunch of
50:11
self-appointed guys so that was a big disappointment in
50:17
itself you think if you tried it again it would be different
50:22
uh probably not because people didn't understand
50:29
the uh concept of sending delegates to continental congress
50:36
and say what is that why should i do that why should i go to go vote unless you're already involved
50:41
in the movement you wouldn't understand what it was about
50:46
whereas with the committee of safety well a lot of ordinary people says well this
50:52
is a local group you know local effort uh this sounds like an effort to protect me
50:59
so yeah i'll go vote and course they talked among themselves and actually found out who they were voting for
51:06
so uh it makes a difference how local it is
51:11
if you try to do this with something on a national level it's very hard to get a good turnout
51:17
do something on a local level you might get better results if you do have conducted a vote of your
51:23
neighborhood association you know or you're voting precinct or something you might get a pretty good
51:28
turnout if there everybody knows each other if they don't know each other you better hold some neighborhood meetings first
51:35
so people get a quick get acquainted because most people don't engage until they become
51:41
comfortable with the other people in the in the effort so
51:46
um our very first militia monsters were mostly get acquainted meetings
51:55
just thinking out loud i would think if you undertook such an enterprise again you
52:02
want to make sure
52:11
well i think we could safely rule out the travis and surrounding counties yes
52:18
i've been since i got here i have one friend who's
52:24
salt of the earth 82nd airborne true blue american everything and he's
52:30
continued to razz me every time i've been here but i ended up in that purple spot on the
52:35
red map the hotbed of flaming liberalism
52:43
i can see where something like an election like that
52:48
you including a territory like this
52:53
would probably trigger people to find ways to subvert your activity
53:09
and the interesting thing is that even the liberals here are more receptive to our cause than you
53:15
might think they're not like folks in new york or chicago or san francisco
53:22
yeah yeah i'm just thinking immediately yes yeah
53:29
yeah well university towns tend to be hotbeds of liberalism yeah they're a
53:35
bunch of kids who are feel that they are blessed by nature or
53:41
whatever with uh greater powers of mind
53:46
and therefore greater responsibilities and an obligation to take protect other people less gifted
53:53
than themselves which is all right as far as it goes but protecting others should not mean
54:01
simply to providing for their needs if they can take care of themselves
54:07
sometimes tough love is the best solution
54:13
there's an interesting column in today's statesmen about that
54:18
this gal amy chu wrote a book about how to be a chinese mother
54:26
she's obviously a very strict parent who is very demanding of her children
54:34
and of course they produce straight a's they're gonna make them you know on their way to becoming valedictorian all that sort of thing uh
54:42
but of course the con the controversy is whether she was too strict whether in her being she was strict to
54:49
the point of being abusive and i think probably not but certainly
54:56
i've seen some cases of that so
55:04
but it does raise an interesting question about how much discipline do kids need what kind of discipline and
55:11
how should it be imposed is there i've taught in the public schools of
55:16
west travis county and the kids were mostly very undisciplined
55:22
but not at all like the kids that i went to school with we were there to learn if any outside
55:29
kid come in from out of town and try to be disruptive we put him down we did that once with a
55:38
guy he gave our little uh arts teacher a hard time and uh would
55:45
take him aside and said told him we were going to beat him up if he didn't settle down and behave himself you won't have to see
55:52
that happening today now you know now the kids are rewarded from the more disruptive they are the more
55:58
popular they are they're not there to learn they're there to be distracted and to distract others
56:06
and there's no effective way of controlling them well we're going to reap that whirlwind
56:13
you can already see the signs of it um
56:19
but you can't really change that without the support of the parents and you're not getting it
56:27
as far as a parent is concerned there they don't want to impose discipline they don't want a recalcitrant kid they
56:34
want to be the kid's buddy they don't want to be his parent so
56:39
you know what we do about that well i guess we're just going to have to have the world economy collapse and
56:44
you know when we're all picking through the garbage uh maybe people will begin to wise up
56:51
but he may take that uh i would prefer that it didn't but
56:58
you know some people learn from other people's mistakes and some don't
57:04
some don't only learn from their own mistakes and some don't even learn that
57:11
oh other questions yes if i'm i really like the idea about this
57:18
federal review commission better than my committees of safety and other things but
57:24
um because i like the approach because it's approach which will actually scale
57:29
it's not like an event thinking about any special events upon time frames without participating it's kind of an
57:38
education campaign so once you get a little bit of a life it can actually grow
57:43
and as you actually indicate just the growth itself starts to create more momentum you know in itself and education and
57:50
spin-off yeah it literally is something that can scale um if we didn't want to write some of
57:56
the state representatives here how are they going to identify this idea
58:02
there's not a builder no well of course i sent them all uh
58:08
copies of my whip you know linked to my webpage and a short summary of what it contained
58:14
so almost all of them already have it if they read their email i'm about to do it again with faxes
58:22
but of course you can simply send a copy of this thing that has a url it has everything on it
58:29
yeah is there a common name that you're using and
58:34
you call it the
58:42
review commission nullification commission for short okay so
58:50
so referencing you referencing your website constitution.org and that well not just constitution.org
58:56
the exact web page that's in this document can you go ahead with the url yeah the url all the way okay and which
59:03
means you have to hand write it print it very carefully and what would you
59:08
in the dream scenario what is the action that you would want say a stage
59:14
representative to take to actually introduce a bill okay well the way it works
59:21
is the remember sends instructions to legislative council staff to draft
59:28
the final form of the bill so if legislative council staff
59:36
yeah that's the staff staffers for the legislature generally right
59:43
both houses share the same staff so let's say for example that
59:52
four different members two senators two house members send the same request to legislative
59:58
council staff the legislative council staff will see that these are the same proposals
1:00:05
coming from four guides so they're going to know that to produce one
1:00:11
bill for all four of them and they'll just send onto them for
1:00:17
further markup and you know amendment or whatever if they differ from one another
1:00:23
then they'll partly duplicate their work but they'll send slightly different versions to each one
1:00:30
that is what the member then introduces he just signs it gets a second on it and
1:00:36
throws it in the hopper is there any draft text for a bill that
1:00:43
uh no uh but they they know how to take care of that okay so it's really just focusing on the
1:00:49
name of this you yourself in those proper lengths and then right when it comes to that legislative staff
1:00:55
crew over now yeah it's a little bit complicated as a bill because
1:01:00
it's proposing a constitutional amendment but there's also implementing legislation
1:01:07
so part of it would be to put a an amendment on the ballot
1:01:12
and the rest of it would be to implement that if adopted so it only goes into effect if the
1:01:19
amendment is adopted
1:01:24
now the pushback by the way i'm getting is actually on the last clause about setting up a civil defense fund
1:01:32
for people who get into trouble with the feds to say well we don't want us we don't want to support anything that
1:01:38
spends any money and i say well and it doesn't have to be tax funds
1:01:44
it can be simply be a fund where the state solicits donations like they do with
1:01:49
the governor's mansion but there needs to be a mechanism for accepting money and distributing it
1:02:00
is that is that absolutely imperative to this or is it something that can be removed in order to get it through
1:02:06
it could be but it's uh it's in there for several reasons first of all
1:02:12
if you're going to ask the citizens to stand up to the feds they're not going to be willing to do it
1:02:18
if they're unless there's somebody backing them with money pay their lawyers maybe pay their mortgage you know
1:02:26
and take care of their families while they're going through the the the crucible of litigation
1:02:36
but it also does something else it provides its revenue source for a lot of hungry
1:02:42
lawyers most members of the legislature are lawyers
1:02:48
and if you introduce legislation that provides them with an opportunity
1:02:53
to make some money they're going to tend to view it more favorably so this is a matter of leveraging the
1:03:01
various interests involved so come all you lawyers you know here's
1:03:06
a chance to you know defend somebody and get paid for it
1:03:12
so these are the kind of calculations one has to do when one is planning legislation now i could
1:03:20
actually draft the entire thing myself i have drafted other legislation
1:03:27
but that in that case i was only drafting it for one member and here i'm
1:03:34
trying to get several of them to all senator the legislative council staff
1:03:41
independently are more or less independently they're going to do it anyway so
1:03:49
rather than doing all the drafting work i leave some of it to them
1:03:55
now of course hopefully one of the members who will run it by me first to make sure that they got it right
1:04:01
the staffers don't always get it right i try to make it as clear as possible but
1:04:07
you know the staffers being staffers they're not always the best and brightest so
1:04:13
you're going to give us paper and tell us what you're writing is that what you're going to do yep i just did
1:04:20
i just did okay here's here's paper
1:04:27
your envelopes by the way there's a little bit of a little bit of personal background on this
1:04:34
i once attended a conference in san antonio as it turns out who pass the
1:04:39
paper around and here are envelopes if you don't know
1:04:44
your member we can go online and look them up
1:04:50
but if you prefer paper with lines that's good too
1:04:57
um anyway where that word at this conference was a conference of
1:05:03
an organization called the alpha of society the purpose long-term goal of the l5
1:05:10
society was to colonize space we wanted to create uh huge
1:05:18
satellites in orbit where people could live permanently
1:05:23
what hear three be sure to give them back to me
1:05:34
so the objective of the l5 society was colonization of space but of course we
1:05:41
were concerned with a lot of what was going on with nasa
1:05:47
in particular there was one program that congress was threatening to cancel
1:05:52
and if they had he would pretty well shoot down our hopes for expansion into space so
1:06:00
the leaders of the conference test all the members present i think
1:06:06
we're about i think we're about 200 of us but it might have been more uh to sit down and write a letter just
1:06:11
like you're doing now and there was you know envelopes and stamps of the whole bid
1:06:20
we won that vote in congress and we heard back from congress that it
1:06:27
was those letters that made the difference only about 200 letters from people from
1:06:34
all over the country although really not quite all over the country they tend to be from mostly from
1:06:39
texas and california but we get scattering from all over but it only took
1:06:45
a few letters in a on a question in which almost no one was
1:06:50
writing one way or the other to tip the balance
1:06:56
so with a state legislature they don't need a lot of letters at least to introduce legislation now to
1:07:04
fight for it is another matter but if we can get this introduced then we can begin
1:07:12
rallying people to to support it what i'm encountering everywhere i go as
1:07:18
well is there a bill before the legislature yet well when there is i'll you know
1:07:23
hold a tea party in support of it but they don't they're not quite prepared to
1:07:29
hold a tea party to get a sponsor they want to hold the tea party after somebody sponsors it
1:07:35
so uh we need to get past that first hurdle
1:07:41
are you writing the uh prototype no no he's writing his letter
1:07:48
i'm writing mine your mind should be nice you you guys
1:07:55
can pass them around after you've written them get ideas from one another it doesn't have to be my language
1:08:01
the more original it is the better well we you know it doesn't do as much good if we don't say the right thing
1:08:10
it doesn't have to be perfect the keys are to identify the name
1:08:16
well you don't have to you know you don't have to identify with them to identify what they are you don't have to identify my name just
1:08:23
to keep my name out of it but you can identify the website the website website
1:08:29
and that's that's on the page there it's on the the back the bottom of the
1:08:36
second page
1:08:41
okay so we want to ask them to sponsor sponsor the federal action review
1:08:47
commission as on this website right has a bill yeah yeah
1:09:02
and i'll shut this off
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