Koppel Slams Feds on Viper

Transcript of a portion of ABC Nightline, July 10, 1996



Lead



[head of federal agent]:

Do not forget for one moment the Oklahoma City bombing.



Koppel voice: Last week the Viper Militiamen were a "terrorist threat".



[Ray Kelly, Undersecretary of the Treasury]:



It was certainly a serious group and I think something could have

happened in the the near term.



Koppel voice: Today a judge is letting half of them go.



[Defense attorney]:



This matter has been absolutely blown completely out of proportion, in

my opinion, by both the United States government and by members of the

electronic media, and some of the print media.



[Defense attorney Thomas Martinez]:



There's no evidence that these people were doing any planning to

overthrow our government, and in fact they aren't charged with doing

that.



Koppel voice: Tonight, what is the case against the Viper Militia?



[Theme music]



[Koppel]:



This business of anticipating terrorism is something of a no-win

proposition. Remember, though, as we talk this evening about the

so-called "Viper Militia" and the arrest of twelve of its members in

Arizona, remember what had happened just a few days earlier in Saudi

Arabia. There, nineteen American servicemen died because security

precautions that could have been taken were not. Already the Secretary

of Defense and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff have been

before Congress acnowledging that security fences should have been moved

well away from the apartment complex that was bombed. Mylar coating

should have been applied to the windows. Condemned Saudi terrorists

should have been interviewed by U.S. intelligence officers. It should

not be surprising, then, that when twelve people were arrested in

Phoenix, on the first of July, twelve "militia" members who, it

appeared, were conspiring to blow up some buildings that housed a number

of federal agencies, when that news broke, we in the media could barely

contain our appetites for the story. And various federal officials were

only too eager and available to feed that appetite. Ray Kelly,

Undersecretary of the Treasury, appeared on the White House lawn, the

night of the indictments:



[Ray Kelly]:



A lot of evidence has been gathered in this case, and as the indictment 

alleges, they conspired to blow up some federal buildings. They possessed 

automatic weapons. And this is a serious group, no doubt about it. 



[Koppel]:



In fact the indictments against those arrested did NOT allege conspiracy 

to blow up federal buildings. They were careful not to charge the Vipers 

with specific plans, to blow up any particular buildings. But, the next 

morning, in the Rose Garden, the President underscored the danger that 

had been narrowly avoided:



[President Clinton]:



I'd like to begin today by saluting the law enforcement officers who

made the arrests in Arizona yesterday, to avert a terrible terrorist

attack. Their dedication and hard work over the last six months may have

saved many lives.



[Koppel]:



Late today, though, in Phoenix, a federal magistrate said that under

certain conditions, he is prepared now to release six of the twelve

"militia" members, as early as tomorrow. When we come back, we'll take a

closer look at the government's case and examine why something that

seemed so open and shut only a few days ago now looks a little more

ambiguous.



[Break]



The government appears to have made more of its case against the "Viper

Militia" than is warranted by the facts, and they were aided in

conveying that impression by us in the media. Here's ABC's Tom Foreman:



[Photos of accused scrolling across the screen, voice of Tom Foreman]:



It started with a series of arrests on a sweltering summer day. Twelve

members of a little-known group called the "Viper Militia" were picked

up in Phoenix, nearly 200 guns were being removed from their homes,

barrels of explosive chemicals, and a video tape, showing various

government buildings around towm. It was a tape U.S. Attorney Janet

Napolitano was eager to talk about.



[Napolitano]:



The voiceover of the video tape provides advice on how to actually

collapse the building, how to enter and take the building.



[Question from the audience]:



Was there a plan that was specific and certain, with certain jobs to do,

with any of these potential bombings?



[Napolitano]:



They had an organized plan.



[Tom Brokaw]:



Federal authorities said a group called the Vipers had planned to launch

terrorist attacks against ...



[Peter Jennings]:



Officials said some time ago they'd arrested twelve members ...



[Voice of Foreman]:



The news exploded. Within hours it was the lead story coast to coast.

The Treasury Department rushed a spokesman onto the White House lawm, to

talk about how "militia" members conspired to blow up the buildings.



[Ray Kelly]:



I think from what they've done, for instance scouting out the federal

buildings, and filming these scouting ventures, and narrating what to do

to the buildings. It was certainly a serious group, and I think

something could have happened in the near term.



[Foreman]:



The message from the government and the media was clear: Federal agents

had thwarted a major terrorist threat. As night fell lawmen took some of

the most volatile explosives they had seized to the countryside and blew

them up.



[Explosion in the dark]



But then as the detention hearing began and more people started reading

the specific charges the defendants faced, it was clear, what government

officials were saying in the court of law, and what they were saying in

the court of public opinion, were two different things.



[Defense attorney Thomas Martinez]:



With respect to my client, he is charged with conspiracy to manufacture,

use, or possess an unregistered destructive device. He is not charged

with planning to bomb any building. He is not charged with planning to

overthrow the government.



[Foreman]:



Indeed, this affidavit from an ATF agent, the centerpiece of the

government case, tells tales of secret training sessions in the desert,

machine guns, homemade rockets, and oaths to kill any police officer who

might dare interfere. But, ultimately, it says nothing about any

imminent plan to attack anyone or blow up anything. On the witness stand

federal agent Stephen Ott testified that lawmen did not even warn people

in the supposedly targeted buildings, because they felt there was no

immediate danger.



[Defense attorney Deborah Williams]:



Gee, I don't know. How much of a danger can there be if federal agents

who knows about a risk and decides that it doesn't warrant a warning? Is

there a real danger or isn't there?



[Foreman]:



Defense attorneys meanwhile hammered on the video tape, which the

government calls a "blueprint for destruction", pointing out that it is

two years old, that many of the defendants did not even know each other

when it was made.



[Defense attorney Thomas Martinez]:



It is a fact that agent Ott testified that they were absolutely certain

that there was no plan to bomb any building.



[Foreman]:



Even when the government showed a separate video tape of Viper "militia"

members allegedly detonating homemade bombs in the desert, family and

friends of the defendants quickly pointed out that tape shows no clear

indication of a plot.



[Family member]:



They couldn't even get their firecrackers to detonate, for crying out

loud, and they're trying to put these people in prison for the rest of

their lives for trying to blow up a building like this? Give me a break!



[Foreman]:



To be sure the twelve defendants in this case do face very serious

accusations, of illegally possessing some guns and explosives, of

illegally training other people on how they might use them, for bad

purposes. And the government has produced some evidence to back up those

charges. But it is doubtful that those charges alone would have produced

the kind of publicity, the kind of media circus, which now surrounds

this case.



[View of black militia activist Mike Johnson]



Militia sympathizers are saying the early handling of the case was

nothing but an unfair smear campaign, that the government fully

intended.



[Mike Johnson]:



Well, either they did it consciously, or they've been unconscious all

the time.



[Foreman, view of defense attorney]:



Defense lawyers are saying that now that some of their clients are being

released, maybe the government will watch its words.



[Defense attorney]:



I'm glad that he's going to be released and I hope that the trial will

take place in the courtroom. That's where it's supposed to take place.



[Foreman]:



And members of the Viper "militia" are saying nothing. Tonight while the

court processes the release papers for some, and prepares to hold the

rest until trial, they are back in jail.



Tomorrow, in addition to the potential release of some of these

defendants, the government is expected to release that second video

tape, the training video tape, which we've all seen in court. Tomorrow

the public will get to see for the first time. Ted...



[Koppel]:



Now there are two video tapes. I gather that you've seen them both, Tom.

Just tell us quickly what your impression was, of each of those tapes.



[Foreman]:



I've seen the training tape. That was the tape where they were out in

the field blowing things up. The impression you have of that depends on

what side you want to come at it from. Yes, there are people in military

garb, or military-like garb, blowing up things in the wild. If you

listen to what's said on the tape, they are saying things that are

vaguely militaristic. At the same time, after every explosion, there's

hooting and hollering, like a bunch of junior high school boys.

Obviously, for the defense, it indicates that these were a bunch of

overgrown boys out playing in the woods with firecrackers. For the

prosecution it shows that these were people who clearly knew how to blow

things up, and were very excited about what they might be able to do

with that.



[Koppel]:



But there is nothing on the tape specifically suggesting what they want

to do with those explosives?



[Foreman]:



On the training tape not at all. They are simply blowing things up. They

talk about the force of the explosion. There is a lot of cursing when

one goes off about how big it was. It's hard to judge how strong they

are, as you know, by looking at an explosive. And yet there's nothing

that's ever said about you could use this for a car, you could use this

for a building, or let's get this ready for tomorrow, or next week, or

next year.



[Koppel]:



Tom Foreman, thanks very much. When we come back I'll be talking with

Dan Maynard, a defense lawyer for a Viper militia member, with George

Terwilliger, who's in the hot seat as Deputy Attorney-General, and with

Rick Ross, who tracks militias in Arizona.



[Break]



[Koppel]:



We invited the Justice Department to send a representative to join us on

this program. They declined, citing a gag order that has been issued in

Phoenix.



Joining us from our Phoenix affiliate KNXV, Dan Maynard is a defense

attorney whose client, Donna Star Williams, will be released on bail

tomorrow. Rick Ross follows extremist groups in the Southwest. He joins

us from KNXV as well. George Terwilliger was the Deputy Attorney-General

during the Bush Administration. He joins us from our Washington studios.

Mr. Maynard, if that earpiece is sufficiently wedged in your ear, tell

me about your client. What were the charges specifically against her? Or

were there indeed specific charges against the individual members of the

militia?



[Daniel Maynard]:



The charge against my client was conspiracy to unlawfully manufacture

and own an unregistered destructive device.



[Koppel]:



And... what's happening now? Why has the judge apparently agreed to let

her go?



[Maynard]:



The judge decided after a three-and-a-half-day detention hearing that

there wasn't sufficient evidence to meet the burden that the government

said that she should have to be detained pending the trial. He has

decided that there are terms and conditions that he can let her out and

she would not pose a danger to the community.



[Koppel]:



You only represent one of these people, is that right?



[Maynard]:



That's correct. Donna Williams.



[Koppel]:



Mr. Terwilliger, let me come to you, then, and just ask you. Should this

have happened? In other words once the government brings indictments

against a dozen people, to what degree does it undermine, if not their

case, then at least the whole psychology around it, when the judge says

"Now I'll let half a dozen go"?



[George Terwilliger]:



Well, I mean, that's always an issue for a judge to decide, and who

knows, maybe a different judge would have taken a different position.

But I think the point you raised at the outset, Ted, is a very valid

question. The question really is, was this case over-hyped? Or was it

over-hyped and under-investigated? Because it does appear now that some

of what was the result of the good work, the hard work, that the good

investigators and the good people at ATF did, was played differently by

the U.S. Attorney and by people in high positions here in Washington.



[Koppel]:



And when you say "played differently", what are you implying?



[Terwilliger]:



Well, I'm not really implying anything. I'm suggesting that some

questions need to be asked about was the hype that was put out by the

government about what this group was up to, who they are, what kind of

people they are, how dangerous they were, was it supported by the facts

that were shown by the investigation, or was that hand overplayed. If it

was, I think that the point you made a moment ago is right on the money,

and that is that it tends to trivialize these kinds of counter-terrorism

cases, which are extremely important.



[Koppel]:



Mr. Ross, I know you told one of my colleagues with whom you spoke

earlier of your concern, and there is this difficulty, and I tried to

make that point at the beginning also, it's very, very tough to step in

at just the right moment, when you're trying to stop terrorism. The only

way you can prove it was going to happen, beyond any shadow of a doubt,

is to let it happen. But is it your impression that in this particular

case perhaps the government stepped in a little bit too early?



[Rick Ross]:



I think that's very hard to call right now, based on we really don't

know all the facts, but it seems to me from the amount of explosives

that were recovered, from the amount of weapons that were seized, that

this was a very volatile group, a dangerous group, and they have let go

the people with lesser charges under very closely supervised release,

and they have kept the people who were involved in instruction. I think

it's a real difficult call, Ted, because what if they waited too long

and some type of violence did occur? Certainly the bombs located in

residential areas, these kind of makings for bombs and these weapons, it

wasn't well-advised to leave those in place in residential neighborhoods

here in Phoenix.



[Koppel]:



Now of course one of the interesting things that already came out during

the preliminary hearings, was that, I believe it was an ATF agent who

was saying, "No, we didn't inform anyone in the buildings that we

thought might be targeted, because we didn't feel that there was

sufficient danger to them." Now that seems to contradict the sense of

urgency, doesn't it?



[Ross]:



Well, we're certainly getting mixed signals. On one hand we're being

told that a video tape will concretely show that there was some type of

conspiracy regarding buildings. And on the other hand that's not

reflected in the charges. And I'm concerned about the people who have

been released, and how they may have been influenced by these leaders,

and brought into a group that may have brought them to a place that they

did not intend to go.



[Koppel]:



What is, Mr. Maynard, I gather that one of those video tapes now has

actually been dropped by the prosecution. Is that correct? In other

words, it not being...



[Maynard]:



Yes, it was withdrawn for the purposes of the detention hearing. We

assume they are going to use the tape at trial.



[Koppel]:



Have you seen that tape?



[Maynard]:



I have not seen it yet.



[Koppel]:



Now, of course, you'll have discovery so you'll be able to see that tape

before it actually goes to trial. Do you have any sense of what is in

it, of what it contains?



[Maynard]:



No more than you have. What we've been told is what we've seen on the

media and what we see in the indictment concerning the tape. We're all

very eager to get hold of it, and take a look at it ourselves.



[Koppel]:



Mr. Terwilliger, what can a government do, ...from your own experience,

...what is the appropriate response when there is a case like this? It

clearly does look as though the federal government initially had done

something very good, and shut down a potentially dangerous group. What

would be your advice, whether it's this administration or any other, as

to how they should deal with it?



[Terwilliger]:



Well, clearly these kinds of things need to be investigated. Good

intelligence is the best preventative device, in terms of dealing with

terrorism, whether it's domestic or foreign. And that means that

government agencies that have the responsibility to deal with terrorist

groups need to be in the intelligence, the information gathering

business. I think there's a question, Ted, actually about where was the

FBI on this group? Were they aware of them? If they were, what did they

know and when did they know it? If they weren't aware of them, what does

that tell us about either how dangerous they are, or are not, or what

does it tell us about how up to speed the FBI is, in terms of following

these kinds of groups? The difficult question that we put our finger on

right here is when do you step in, how long do you investigate, when do

you step in to prevent something? I'm not going to quarrel with the

judgement that it was the right time to step in here, because none of us

are in a position to know. What bothers me about this, though, is what

may be even a politically-motivated edge to the hype that was put on

this case, not by the people who actually investigated it and did it,

but rather their superiors here in Washington.



[Koppel]:



Mr. Ross, we've only got about thirty or forty seconds left. On that

point, do we have agreement that the investigation, the arrests,

everything may have worked just perfectly, but perhaps some people here

in Washington made too much of it, too soon?



[Ross]:



Well, I'd like to think, Ted, that they erred on the side of caution,

because I know these groups here in Arizona, and they're very volatile,

very delusional about their conspiracy theories, and it could be almost

anything, Ted, that could set them off, into the idea that the

government is coming against them, whether it's some type of mythology

about black helicopters, or, I've even heard conspiracy theories about

the U.S.S. Liberty, and the government deliberately setting that ship up

for attack by Israel. One hears these conspiracy theories regularly,

here in Arizona, on our ham radio stations, and I think that this has

made a very volatile mix with these groups.



[Koppel]:



Mr. Ross, Mr. Maynard, Mr. Terwilliger, thank you all very much.



>>End of transcript<<